Talk:Teikō Shiotani

No infobox

Please do not add an infobox. See this arbitration report, and, for a more recent discussion, the talk page for the article on Stanley Kubrick. -- Hoary (talk) 10:44, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Date of birth: 22nd or 24th?

TL;DR? We can now assume that it was the 24th. Fuller explanation below. -- Hoary (talk) 01:59, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

There's a lack of agreement over the date in October 1899 of his birth: some sources say the 22nd, others the 24th. I've indicated this in a footnote, using one online source for each. That for the 24th may not look impressive, but the publisher here accurately reflects what's said in the book, which is authoritative. But if anyone wants more:

It's the 22nd according to:

• Manfred Heiting, ed. Fotografie 1922–82 = Photography 1922–82. Cologne: KölnMesse, 1982. ISBN 3980073009. (chronology, p.235)
• Uminari no fūkei: Shiotani Teikō shashinshū (海鳴りの風景 塩谷定好写真集) = Teikoh Shiotani Portfolio 1923–1973. 1984. (chronology, p.3)
• Nihon shashinka jiten (日本写真家事典) = 328 Outstanding Japanese Photographers. 2000. ISBN 4-473-01750-8 (a potted encyclopedia of photographers)
• Nihon no shashinka (日本の写真家) = Biographic Dictionary of Japanese Photography. 2005. ISBN 4-8169-1948-1. (a very potted encyclopedia of photographers)
• Nihon no shashinka 101 (日本の写真家101; 101 photographers of Japan). 2008. ISBN 978-4-403-25095-8. (a potted encyclopedia of photographers)
• The chronology within the biography of Shiotani provided by and for the Teiko Shiotani Memorial Photo Gallery (as I've mentioned in the footnote) Struck through. See below for comments. -- Hoary (talk) 01:59, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

And it's the 24th according to:

• Geijutsu shashin no jidai: Shiotani-Teikō-ten katarogu (芸術写真の時代 塩谷定好展 カタログ) = The Age of Art Photography: Shiotani Teiko Exhibition Catalogue. 2016. (Japanese-language chronology, p.133; English-language chronology, p.136)
• Itoshiki mono e: Shiotani Teikō: 1899–1988 (愛しきものへ 塩谷定好1899–1988) = To things beloved: Shiotani Teikō 1899–1988. 2017. (essay by Tsutatani, p.201 [English], p.270 [Japanese])
• Yume no kageri: Shiotani Teikō no shashin 1899–1988 (夢の翳 塩谷定好の写真1899–1988) = Teiko Shiotani. 2019. ISBN 978-4-7630-1920-2. (chronology, p.224). Additionally, the publisher's description of this book

And in case anyone's wondering:

• Seitan 120-nen geijutsu-shashin no kamisama Shiotani Teikō to sono jidai (生誕120年 芸術写真の神様 塩谷定好とその時代) = The Legend in Art Photography: Teikoh Shiotani and His Contemporaries. 2019. ISBN 978-4-86611-176-6. This book has a chronology, but it goes year by year, not specifying dates. The date of birth doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere else in this book either.

The date was given as the 22nd in this article until I revamped it. It is given as the 22nd in the (currently disappointing) Japanese-language WP article on Shiotani. (Also in the French-language version, but this is merely a translation of an earlier version of this English-language article.)

One might suppose that a date would be specified here or here, but it is not.

Simply doing a head-count (source-count) shows that 22 gets more "votes". However, 24 comes from recent and seemingly authoritative sources. Yet teiko.jp says 22. I haven't yet encountered any acknowledgement of a disagreement ("Although X states A, this is incorrect; it is actually B, because P"). (My own opinion is that date of birth is unimportant, but of course that one should avoid getting it wrong.) -- Hoary (talk) 10:44, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Update Some time between February 2020 and now, Teiko.jp changed its mind: Previously it said 22; now it says 24. All the other sources I've given above for 22 are of course codices, and so none can change its mind on the (trivial) matter. I see no good reason to dispute the veracity of 24, and have removed the ambiguity/complication from the article. Tip of the hat to Buidhe for drawing my attention back to the matter of birth date. -- Hoary (talk) 01:59, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Removals

As the article is being fleshed out, it seems appropriate to remove:

a reference (for nothing specific):

• Nihon shashinka jiten (日本写真家事典) / 328 Outstanding Japanese Photographers. Kyoto: Tankōsha, 2000. ISBN 4-473-01750-8.

an external link:

• Ono, Philbert. "Shiotani Teiko", PhotoGuide Japan.

an exhibition:

• 1979: Akasaki Nōgyō Kanri Sentā (赤碕農業管理センター), Akasaki.

Although listed in the chronology within Uminari no fūkei, this doesn't seem to be mentioned in any of the four later books on Shiotani, so I infer that it was a mistake.

"other appearances":

• Modanizumu no jidai (モダニズムの時代) / The Age of Modernism. Tokyo: Tokyo Metropolitan Museum of Photography, 1995. Catalogue of an exhibition held 1995–96 at the Tokyo Metropolitan Museum of Photography. Plate 116 is by Shiotani.
• Nihon kindai shashin no seiritsu to tenkai (日本近代写真の成立と展開) / The Founding and Development of Modern Photography in Japan. Tokyo: Tokyo Museum of Photography, 1995. Plate 10 is by Shiotani.
• Nihon no shashin: Uchinaru katachi, sotonaru katachi 1: Torai kara 1945 made (日本の写真　内なるかたち・外なるかたち 1 渡来から1945まで) / Japanese Photography: Form In/Out 1: From Its Introduction to 1945. Tokyo: Tokyo Metropolitan Museum of Photography, 1996. Exhibition catalogue. A portrait appears on p. 83.

-- Hoary (talk) 10:44, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Collections

According to the web page "Teiko Shiotani: Pioneer of Artistic Photography in Japan" (Photo History Museum Fujifilm Square, Fujifilm, 2015), works by Shiotani are also at:

1. Bibliothèque nationale de France
2. Museum für Kunst und Gewerbe Hamburg
3. Santa Fe Museum of Art

However:

1. For BnF, polling the catalogue brings nothing.
2. For MKGH, polling the catalogue brings nothing.
3. I don't even know what's meant by "Santa Fe Museum of Art". (The New Mexico Museum of Art, perhaps?)

-- Hoary (talk) 10:44, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Polling the BnF catalogue brings the Album photobook; imaginably this has been confused with a print. According to the Houston Chronicle review, the 1988–1990 travelling US exhibition of Shiotani's, was planned at the Center of [sic] Contemporary Arts at Santa Fe; perhaps "Santa Fe Museum of Art" is a garbled version of CCA Santa Fe. -- Hoary (talk) 06:19, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Minor appearances

I thought that these shows/books might have (had) a significant quantity of Shiotani, but I find they don't/didn't:

• Paris – New York – Tokyo. Tsukuba Museum of Photography, Tsukuba, Ibaraki. March–September 1985. Also (as Shashin no 150-nen, 写真の150年; 150 years of photography), Miyagi Museum of Art, Sendai. November–December 1985. A single print. Source: "出品目録 Exhibition list", Sendai Mediatheque, 2005. (This web page has technical problems; in order to display it properly, the browser may have to be told to do so in UTF-8, or Unicode.) For the significance of the exhibition, see "Kaisai shushi" (開催趣旨) (with parallel Japanese, English and French texts), Sendai Mediatheque, 2005.

• Nihon no shashin 1930-nendai-ten (日本の写真1930年代展, Japanese photographs of the 1930s). Museum of Modern Art, Kamakura. September–October 1988. Only two prints by Shiotani.

• "Nihon no shashin 1930 nendai" ten zuroku (「日本の写真1930年代」展図録) = Japanese Photography in 1930s. Kamakura: The Museum of Modern Art, Kamakura, 1988. NCID BA31785954. Only two plates by Shiotani (146, 147).

• Nihon no geijutsu shashin 1920–1940 (日本の芸術写真1920–1940; Art photography in Japan, 1920–1940). Konica Plaza, Tokyo. June 1988. Catalogue shows nothing by Shiotani.

• Shashin 150-nen: Umi no shashin meihin-ten (写真150年 海の写真名品展) = 150 Years of Photography: The Photographic Masterpieces of the Sea. Shimonoseki City Art Museum (下関市立美術館), Shimonoseki, Yamaguchi. 1990. One plate (p. 45).

• Nihon no pikutoriarizumu: Fūkei e no manazashi (日本のピクトリアリズム : 風景へのまなざし) = The Pictorial Landscape in Japanese Photography. Tokyo Metropolitan Museum of Photography, Tokyo, 1992. Two photos (plates 95, 96: pages 114, 115).

• Ueda Shōji to sono nakama-tachi: 1935–55 (植田正治とその仲間たち：1935～55; Shōji Ueda and his friends, 1935–55). Yonago, Tottori: Yonago City Museum of Art, 1992. No photo by Shiotani.

• Yoshio Hori (堀宜雄) and Shin'ichi Kuji (久慈伸一), eds. Hikari no nosutarujia: Koseki Shōtarō to Nihon no geijutsu shashin (光のノスタルヂア 小関庄太郎と日本の芸術写真) = Light of Nostalgia: Koseki Shotaro and Pictorial Photographs in Japan. Fukushima: Fukushima Prefectural Museum of Art, 2001. NCID BA56398903; OCLC 270761680. Only three plates by Shiotani (pages 24–25).

• Rusō no mita yume, Rusō ni miru yume (ルソーの見た夢、ルソーに見る夢) = Rousseau Envisaged: Henri Rousseau and Japanese Artists. Tokyo: Setagaya Art Museum, 2006. OCLC 233492795. Two prints (from the museum in Yonago) on page 163.

• Geijutsu shashin no seika: Nihon no pikutoriarizumu jugyō no meihinten (芸術写真の精華 日本のピクトリアリズム珠玉の名品展) = Masterpieces of Japanese Pictorial Photography. Tokyo: Tokyo Museum of Photography, 2011. NCID BB05057957; OCLC 768248003. Exhibition held in the Tokyo Metropolitan Museum of Photography, March–May 2011. Plates 41 and 97 of the catalogue are by Shiotani.

Teiko Shiotani Memorial Photo Gallery (name of)

The website (teiko.jp) of 塩谷定好写真記念館 doesn't seem to specify a non-Japanese name for it. However, its Facebook page is titled "Teiko Shiotani memorial photo gallery (塩谷定好写真記念館)"; and "Teiko Shiotani Memorial Photo Gallery" is also the name used on the English-language acknowledgments page within the catalogue Itoshiki mono e. -- Hoary (talk) 10:44, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

ISBN, OCLC, NCID

If a book has an ISBN, I provide it. There's then little benefit in also providing an OCLC or NCID. However, I provide both of the latter (where possible) when I can't find an ISBN: OCLC is useful in many countries (though almost useless in Japan); NCID is very useful in Japan (though useless anywhere else). -- Hoary (talk) 10:44, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Titles in two languages

I'm using my own convention, which I'll explain via example. Two exhibitions:

• Shashin no bikan (写真の美観; The beauty of photographs).[...]

• Itoshiki mono e: Shiotani Teikō 1899–1988 (愛しきものへ 塩谷定好 1899–1988) = To Things Beloved: Shiotani Teikō 1899–1988. [...]

The first has a title in Japanese: 写真の美観. In Hepburn romanization, this is Shashin no bikan. Similarly, the second has a title in Japanese: 愛しきものへ 塩谷定好 1899–1988; or romanized, Itoshiki mono e: Shiotani Teikō 1899–1988. Here's where they differ: the first has only a Japanese title (as far as I'm aware); "The beauty of photographs" is merely my own translation. The second has two titles: the English version was provided by the producers.

I hope that this makes sense to readers and other editors. -- Hoary (talk) 10:44, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Other names in two languages/scripts

It can be very difficult to find material about Japanese people, institutions, etc, if one doesn't know how their names are written (or even what their names are) in Japanese. Wanting to be helpful but not to burden the text unnecessarily, I've adopted a system that I'll explain by example:

• "Hakuyō Fuchikami": Person is blue-linked; anyone wanting to know his name in kanji can find it by clicking on this link and looking in the article that's about him; I therefore haven't provided his name in kanji.
• "Hakuyō Fukumori": Person is (currently) redlinked, but there's an article about him in Japanese (and perhaps also article(s) in other language(s)); anyone wanting to know his name in kanji can find it by going via WikiData to the Japanese-language article about him; I therefore haven't provided it here.
• "Hokutō Saigō (西郷北濤)": There's currently no article about him in the Wikipedia of any language; I therefore provide his name in kanji so that people who are interested can easily look him up.

-- Hoary (talk) 10:44, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

I've removed Japanese script that would be obvious, or very easy to guess, for any reader knowing a little Japanese. (As for readers not knowing a little Japanese, it's hard to think how the Japanese script might help them.) -- Hoary (talk) 10:55, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Duck egg curry quotation

I first encountered the duck egg curry quote in Noriko Tsutatani, "To things beloved – Shiotani Teikō 1899–1988" (in English, p. 272); "Itoshiki mono e: Shiotani Teikō: 1899–1988" (in Japanese, 愛しきものへ 塩谷定好1899–1988, p. 203); within Itoshiki mono e. I'm following her in using （中略） to mark an ellipsis (doing so is standard for Japanese). However, I cut slightly less than she does. The ellipsis is long: the chunk skipped within the quotation starts on p.162 and jumps to p.163. It's in Japanese that probably seems odd: Shiotani is speaking to Ueda and the pair were both from Tottori and therefore both speaking in the area's dialect, as the article points out. (Ueda has asked about the photograph Gyoson. His question: 「この写真、おぼえちょるか」.) -- Hoary (talk) 10:45, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Fotografia Giapponese dal 1848 ad Oggi

The chronologies in the recent books tell us that this travelling exhibition (1979–1982) showed 50 photographs by Shiotani. If he was typical of the eight "masters", then the eight would have shown a total of about 400 photographs – and that's not including the miscellanies (historical, and "Modern Trends") not by "masters". I strongly suspect that 50 is a mistake, and that the seven by Shiotani shown in the book were all that were shown. (Certainly there's a certain amount of mindless copying among the miscellaneous chronologies. For example, one exhibition venue is consistently listed as アンヘルム [Anherumu]; there's no such place; what's meant is アルンヘム [Arunhemu], i.e. Arnhem.) Anyway, I deliberately avoid giving the number of prints shown in the exhibition. -- Hoary (talk) 10:45, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Tangible Cultural Properties: Registration versus designation

Currently:

• Constructed in 1874, this two-storey building was registered as a Tangible Cultural Property of Japan in November 2017
• . . . the Shiotani family house, built in 1906 and registered as a Tangible Cultural Property of Japan at the same time

An obvious, if minor, stylistic improvement would be "was designated a Tangible Cultural Property of Japan". But please don't do this. There are "Registered Tangible Cultural Properties of Japan" and there are "Designated Tangible Cultural Properties of Japan". This pair (as well as other, closely related buildings) are classed among the former, not among the latter. -- Hoary (talk) 10:45, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Sumoto monument

The chronology for Sadayoshi Shiotani (as he's called) on p.235 of the 1982 Photokina catalogue contains one surprise for 1979: A monument was erected in his honour at the Wado Hospital, Sumoto City, Awaji Island. I don't know what relation Shiotani may have had with Sumoto, I can't find any reference to any hospital there that currently uses this name, and don't know anything else about this. -- Hoary (talk) 10:45, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Book availability

Those outside Japan who aren't lucky enough to have access to a library that stocks any of the six major books may wonder how they might get hold of one or more among them.

• Shiotani Teikō meisakushū: 1923–1973 (塩谷定好名作集 1923–1973) = Album 1923–1973: Teikoh Shiotani. NCID BN15144666. OCLC 703803365. Long out of print, and uncommon.
• Uminari no fūkei: Shiotani Teikō shashinshū (海鳴りの風景 塩谷定好写真集) = Teikoh Shiotani Portfolio 1923–1973. NCID BN15144928. OCLC 755064990. Long out of print, but it's obvious that many were printed: cheap copies are easy to find in Japan.
• Geijutsu shashin no jidai: Shiotani-Teikō-ten katarogu (芸術写真の時代 塩谷定好展 カタログ) = The Age of Art Photography: Shiotani Teiko Exhibition Catalogue. NCID BB22168794. OCLC 986526024. New copies available here.
• Itoshiki mono e: Shiotani Teikō: 1899–1988 (愛しきものへ 塩谷定好1899–1988) = To things beloved: Shiotani Teikō 1899–1988. NCID BB23337252. OCLC 988732104. New copies available here.
• Yume no kageri: Shiotani Teikō no shashin 1899–1988 (夢の翳 塩谷定好の写真1899–1988) = Teiko Shiotani. Edited by Noriko Tsutatani. Tokyo: Kyūryūdō, 2019. ISBN 978-4-7630-1920-2. New copies available as for any conventionally published book.
• Seitan 120-nen geijutsu-shashin no kamisama Shiotani Teikō to sono jidai (生誕120年 芸術写真の神様 塩谷定好とその時代) = The Legend in Art Photography: Teikoh Shiotani and His Contemporaries. ISBN 978-4-86611-176-6. New copies available as for any conventionally published book.

-- Hoary (talk) 22:50, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

DYK nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:50, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that during a three-day trip around Shimane, the photographer Teikō Shiotani and four friends feared they would starve but eventually found curry and rice with duck eggs? Source: "We took photographs for three days and I thought we would die.... During that trip we didn't encounter a single woman. There were no inns; we just wrapped ourselves in straw mats and kept on walking. Finally we managed to get some curry and rice with duck eggs and it was delicious." Which is my translation of 「三日間、死ぬ思いして撮ったんじゃよ。（中略）まるで女に会わん旅じゃった。宿屋もなく、ゴザをまとい、ただただ歩いた。やっと、ありついたアヒルの卵入りのライスカレーがうまかったなあ」. Quoted in Takayuki Kobayashi (小林孝之), "Honshi sōkan 50-shūnen kinen tokushū: Besutan no aji o ikiru: Dai-ikkai getsurei shashin nyūsen Shiotani Teikō shi no baai" (本誌創刊50周年記念特集　ベス単の味を生きる　第一回月例写真入選塩谷定好氏の場合; This magazine's 50th anniversary special: Living for the feel of the Vest Pocket Kodak: The case of Teikō Shiotani, winner of the first monthly exhibition), Asahi Camera, April 1976, pp. 161–164. (For more detail, see the talk page.)

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Goat tower

5x expanded by Hoary (talk). Self-nominated at 23:59, 20 February 2020 (UTC).

• Date, size, copyvio check, neutrality, hook, all GTG. There is just one problem: the story from the hook does not seem to exist in the article. Please add it there. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:33, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

• That's a serious problem indeed! But, ummm ... Right under the second paragraph of the section titled "Prominence", my browser shows me a block quotation saying:We took photographs for three days and I thought we would die. . . . During that trip we didn't encounter a single woman. There were no inns; we just wrapped ourselves in straw mats and kept on walking. Finally we managed to get some curry and rice with duck eggs and it was delicious.^{[n 7]}. (Note 7 provides the source, and what was said in the original Japanese.) -- Hoary (talk) 05:07, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
• . . . but my apologies, Prokonsul, if I've somehow misunderstood you (as I suspect). -- Hoary (talk) 05:23, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

• @Hoary: My point is that the story should be added to the body of the article. If it is good enough for the hook, it should be good enough to be moved from the quotation and into the article proper. Readers may want to read more about it from the DYK, but right now the article doesn't discuss it. Ex. searching for the word "starve" gets nothing. In general, I recommend that hooks are based on sentences found in the articles proper. See also WP:ASTONISH. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:53, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

• @Piotrus: I suppose I could change it to Much later, Shiotani told Shōji Ueda that they'd taken photographs for three days but that he'd thought they'd die: there were no inns, and they just wrapped ourselves in straw mats and kept on walking. Finally, said Shiotani, they managed to get some curry and rice with duck eggs, which was delicious. But this seems inferior to the way that it is now. If I could stomach the change and the result of the change would satisfy you, then I could make it, and the article would eventually get its little mention in DYK, and one day later I'd be greatly tempted to revert to the direct (if translated) quotation. But such a change one way and then back the other might contravene some guideline or other, and even if it doesn't strikes me as a bit too cynical. Putting aside my nefarious plan for a later reversion, my unenthusiastically proposed rewording probably wouldn't satisfy you: You point out that "right now the article doesn't discuss" the starvation/curry business, and it still wouldn't discuss it. Really, this a story that (like many didja-knows) doesn't seem to me to merit a discussion; and more importantly (since this is WP) I can't confect my own discussion ("original research"), and I haven't yet encountered any discussion that the article might cite. (There could well be some in the 1984 book Uminari no fūkei, but there are only so many hours in my day.) Please feel free to fail this nomination. -- Hoary (talk) 07:25, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

• @Hoary:~It would be a shame to fail this on a minor technical ground, but at the same time I don't feel comfortable passing it with the current hook. Could you suggest a different one? Or we can wait for a second DYK reviewer opinion (but that may be weeks or months away, given current backlog). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:28, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

• @Piotrus:, thank you. I'll try to think of other hooks, after I've returned to WP following a break of one or two days. (Tomorrow I'll enjoy the world outside my house, while I'm still permitted to do so.) -- Hoary (talk) 12:17, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

• No hurry, ping me when you are back, take care. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:25, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

How about the following, Prokonsul?

Teikō Shiotani's View with weather forecast

• ALT1 ... that Teikō Shiotani's View with weather forecast of 1931 (pictured) is from an upstairs window of his house, and he exaggerated the curvature of the horizon by bending the photographic paper under the enlarger?

-- Hoary (talk) 03:59, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

• I have taken the liberty of removing the second "that" from ALT1 to get it down below 200 prose characters (199 excluding "(pictured)"), and also properly formatted the article bold link in it and also the new image for DYK purposes. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:02, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

• Thank you, BlueMoonset. I suppose we could also zap "an upstairs window of". Hmm, come to think of it, I think I'd slightly prefer zapping that and restoring the "that" in front of "he exaggerated". What about it? (Meanwhile, I should be grateful that Sadayoshi Shiotani decided to call himself Teikō Shiotani, thereby saving me four characters.) -- Hoary (talk) 07:00, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

@Hoary: Just one nitpick: the article uses the phrase View with forecasted weather and the hook uses View with weather forecast. Consistency is a good thing. Can we chose one variant? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:11, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

That's bizarre. I mean, I somehow hadn't noticed the discrepancy. Thank you for pointing it out. View with weather forecast is less awkward and I can't think of any drawbacks, so just now I edited the article for consistent use of this title. -- Hoary (talk) 06:03, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

To editor Piotrus: Is there any other problem that I should attend to? -- Hoary (talk) 21:52, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

We are GTG. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:06, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Not a GA review, but some suggestions for improvement

1. The lead could use expansion. I know writing leads is hard, but expanding to two paragraphs might help it be more proportional to the article length and cover the major aspects of the topic.
2. Footnotes seem excessive to me. Are there any that would be better off incorporated into the text? (For example, #18) Some would be better deleted if they are not closely related to Shiotani.
3. Some of the content in the footnotes does not have an obvious, verifiable source. For example, note #19, "The title has been translated as Landscape with Forecasted Weather and Landscape with weather report."
4. The use of Japanese characters and romanization is excessive and makes the article hard to read. In most cases the foreign language name should be covered in the Wikipedia article about that topic. For example, place names should not be provided in multiple languages in most articles not related to geography. Per MOS:FOREIGN, "Foreign terms should be used sparingly."

(t · c) buidhe 08:35, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Buidhe, sorry for the delay in responding. It's only today that I've noticed your edits to the article or the presence of your comments. I find some of the latter rather annoying ... which is a good sign that they're worthwhile. I'll give each serious thought; and I'll implement it, explain my reason for not doing so, or whatever. Meanwhile, one of your edits prompted a second look at what turned out to be a revised version of a page I'd cited; the revision cleared up the mystery over the man's birth date. -- Hoary (talk) 02:30, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Hours later, Buidhe, and your comments continue to irritate me. Which surely is a sign of their good value! Your first and second comments: I'll try to get around to both matters a little later. Your third: Aaargh, I started to tackle this defect via the single note that you drew to my attention. So I pulled eight books off my bookshelf and looked within them for the photo in question. In short, one note done. I suppose I'll have to attend to the other notes too [groan]. Your fourth: I must have been unsuccessful in communicating. Let's look at a humdrum example:

Shiotani and four other photographers made a trip around the coasts of Shimane Prefecture: Kaka (加賀), Konami (小波), Shichirui, Mihonoseki, and particularly Okidomari.

(i) Shimane Pref and Mihonoseki both have articles in en:WP, and anyone wanting to know how their names are written can click the respective link and take a look. (ii) Shichirui and Okidomari only have articles in ja:WP, AFAIK, and again, anyone wanting to know how their names are written can click the respective link and take a look. (iii) Kaka and Konami don't have articles in either WP; and anyone wanting to look up either in a gazetteer or similar would have to guess their spelling. ("Konami" could be 小波, 小浪, 小並, 子波, etc; it's similarly difficult for "Kaka".) And therefore I helpfully (?) provide Japanese script for the third type of name only. I tried to carry out this three-way distinction for Japanese names throughout the article, but wouldn't be surprised if I slipped somewhere. -- Hoary (talk) 06:51, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Hoary I do see this as an issue for non-Latin alphabets, but on the other hand the use of multiple names does clutter the article a lot and detracts from readability. If notable consider starting stubs on the Japanese places that do not have articles in either language yet. (t · c) buidhe 07:11, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I'll have to think about the matter a little, Buidhe. I loathe stubs. (Am I unusual in this?) But thank you for continuing to pester me: it's salutary! -- Hoary (talk) 08:05, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I've amplified the lead. -- Hoary (talk) 07:21, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Vest Pocket Kodak, etc

Buidhe has deleted material about the names in Japanese of the Vest Pocket Kodak (and its Japanese clones), with the comment "this is way too much detail on something that is not closely related to the article topic, belongs in the Wikipedia article about the camera". I'd say that the besutan is closely related to Shiotani. That's a matter of opinion, but a simple fact is that en:WP currently lacks Vest Pocket Kodak, Vest-pocket camera, or similar. I'm not planning to revert the deletion; but any future editor working on an article about 127-format folding cameras (not only Kodaks!) and their use in Japan (in the hands of Shiotani, Shōji Ueda, a bunch of other "art" photographers, as well of course as "vernacular" photographers) may like to recycle this note. -- Hoary (talk) 02:30, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for mentioning this note -- I have copied it shamelessly into the new article about the VPK. Cheers, Mliu92 (talk) 16:24, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

View with Weather Forecast

I've translated Tenki yohō no aru fūkei (天気予報のある風景) as View with Weather Forecast. This despite the published use of different translations: (i) Landscape with Forecasted Weather and (ii) Landscape with Weather Report. Why? The former sounds to me like a mistranslation, or very unidiomatic, or a bit of both. As for the latter, "weather report" sounds to me like news of the weather as it has recently been, or as it now is (a concept whose standard Japanese expression is kishō jōhō, 気象情報), whereas tenki yohō (天気予報) means weather forecast. -- Hoary (talk) 07:00, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Teikō Shiotani/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Mike Christie (talk · contribs) 11:48, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

I'll review this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:48, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Images are appropriately licensed. Earwig finds no issues; sources are reliable as far as I'm able to judge.

• Suggest linking pictorialism in the lead (you link it in the body).

• Linked. -- Hoary (talk) 22:16, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

• "He was the eldest son of the sixth patriarch": what does "patriarch" refer to here? Lineage of the company owners?

• No, head of the family. Our man Sadayoshi/Teikō was the eldest son. We assume that he was the sixth in a succession of eldest sons (or anyway eldest of the sons who survived their fathers and weren't regarded as invalids). The first of what my source calls patriarchs would have been his great×4 grandfather (let's call him G4G); he would not have been the eldest son but (as far as I understand these matters) he would have been above averagely affluent and ambitious. G4G's father may or may not have had the surname Shiotani; if he did have, then G4G would have set up Shiotani shintaku (新宅, a new household with the existing surname); if he didn't have this, then "Shiotani" might, for example, have been quasi-donated by a family with plenty of land or other assets but no [male] heir. Or something like this; NB I only have a vague idea of this kind of thing, and unfortunately I can't find an article about it. (The article "primogeniture" concentrates on monarchies.) I'll leave the text as is for a couple of days or until I have a brainwave (whichever comes earlier); I could then cut any mention of patriarchy and simplify it to Sadayoshi Shiotani (鹽谷 定好, Shiotani Sadayoshi) was born on 24 October 1899 in Akasaki (since 2004 part of Kotoura), Tottori, to a family who owned a shipping agency. His grandfather had held various important civic posts, and had some interest in photography. -- Hoary (talk) 01:37, 24 April 2023 (UTC) PS The article "Historical inheritance systems" is a little better, but still not what I need; I expect that I'll end up deleting this "patriarchal" talk. -- Hoary (talk) 07:59, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

  What you say makes sense, but if there's nothing we can link to I think it would be simpler to eliminate the word. If we know for sure that this usage means he was the sixth in a line of eldest sons we can say so, though as you say ideally that would require a cite too. Up to you how you handle it. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:49, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

  Now fixed, I hope. -- Hoary (talk) 22:29, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

• There's no date given for his acquisition of the larger camera, but as written it seems a little out of place, as the next two paragraphs end with him setting up the Vest Club. Would it make more sense to move the sentence about the larger camera to after the paragraph about the Vest Club? Though I also see later in the article that he never gave up the Vest Pocket Kodak, so alternatively how about adding "though he continued to use the Vest Pocket Kodak for the rest of his life" to the sentence about the larger camera to make the subsequent paragraphs seem more natural?

• Yes, this is awkward. Unfortunately the source doesn't say when he got the large format camera. I've adopted your latter suggestion (with a slight change because, as the article goes on to say, in his later years Shiotani dispensed with the vest-pocket body and just used its lens). -- Hoary (talk) 05:14, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

• "Shiotani calculated that his photography from 1915 to 1935 had added up in the following way: still lifes, 2.5 (out of 10); human figures, 2.8; scenery, 3.6; animals, 1.1." I'm not sure what this means -- fraction of his photography devoted to these subjects? If so, how about using percentages directly, which would help convey that; and some phrase like "devoted to these subjects" would make it clearer.

• Tweaked accordingly. -- Hoary (talk) 22:16, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

• "and Takeuji surmises from this and from Shiotani's occasional photography of cemeteries and human bones that he may have been an early exponent of Surrealism in Japanese photography, although Surrealism in the visual arts was little known in Japan until later (1937) and the degree of Shiotani's awareness of Surrealist trends overseas is unknown." Unsourced.

• Source added. -- Hoary (talk) 22:16, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

• "of pre-1945 photography to be profiled in Ryūichi Kaneko and Ivan Vartanian's survey Japanese Photobooks of the 1960s and '70s." Unsourced; I suppose one could see it's source to the named book, but I think adding that as a citation is worth doing.

• The article now says Edited by Shiotani's great admirer Shōji Ueda and printed and published in Yonago (Tottori), Album 1923–1973 was later one of only four books of pre-1945 photography to be profiled in Ryūichi Kaneko and Ivan Vartanian's survey Japanese Photobooks of the 1960s and '70s. Within this, Japanese Photobooks of the 1960s and '70s is linked to a description within the article of the book. Adding to this sentence a reference to the book seems redundant. Removing the link from the sentence and then adding the reference wouldn't be so bad, but within this article it would be an anomalous way of referring to the book. I don't have a copy of the book. I could get hold of one fairly easily; but while I don't, I'll say that the description of its coverage as "forty or so books" (Marc Feustel, here) or "forty odd examples" (Reiko Tomii, here) sounds right. I don't remember Kaneko or Vartanian saying that four among the circa forty were/are of pre-1945 photography; it's a number that I derived from an examination of the circa forty descriptions. I hope that this wouldn't be regarded as some kind of "original research" but if it would be, please don't hesitate to say so, and I'll chop it. -- Hoary (talk) 06:40, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

  If I understand correctly, wouldn't it suffice just to move the current footnote to the end of the sentence? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:53, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

  I looked at this suggestion, I looked at the paragraph, I repeated both ... and I still didn't see how moving the footnote would help at all. But moving it also wouldn't do any harm; and so I shrugged and went ahead and moved it. -- Hoary (talk) 22:29, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

  You're quite right; I must have been confused when I wrote that. I've reread your previous paragraph to try to ensure I'm no longer confused. I think examining the "circa forty descriptions" in the book is perfectly adequate to allow us to cite the book. I see your point regarding linking to the book and simultaneously citing it, but the two things serve different functions; it's one of those formalisms that occasionally comes up, and I think it would be fine to just add a citation to it. I also take your point that if Kaneko and Vartanian don't make a point of how few early books they include, perhaps we should not substitute our editorial judgement for theirs, but for GA I'm fine with having it either way. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:07, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

  I've tinkered with it again; hope it's OK now. -- Hoary (talk) 00:53, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

  Perfect. Sorry I was out to lunch for a few minutes on my earlier reply! Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:12, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

• Did he have a day job, or was his family rich enough that he didn't need one?

• A good question. Yes he did have one; but for what period, I don't know. In this photograph (from this page) we see studio props. Takeuji (in the Mitaka catalogue): "At that time [i.e. some unspecified time after the war], Shiotani established his own photo studio next to his house and was running that as well." On the need for an income, Takeuji describes him as "born into a wealthy family who owned a shipping agency", and Tsutatani (in the Shimane exhibition catalogue): "[D]espite being the eldest son, Teikō was not coerced into running the family business but allowed to devote himself to photography." Shiotani's works have been preserved with admirable care, but Shiotani the man remains a mystery in some ways: the chronology in Yume no kageri provides detail for some things, but doesn't seem to mention any studio and says nothing whatever about the period from 1957 to 1970. The article you're now checking currently says that Shiotani "was freed from a career in the family shipping business and instead allowed to pursue photography", and "After the war, Shiotani opened a photo studio next to his house and also continued photographing for his own interest"; I think that this is all that the sources allow us to say. -- Hoary (talk) 06:40, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

• "A notable example is Bird's-Eye View of a Village of 1934": this is cited only to the photograph; I think we need something else to say it's "a notable example".

• Yes, excellent point. I've changed this. -- Hoary (talk) 07:54, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Will do spotchecks next. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:44, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Spotchecks. Footnote numbers refer to this version. I don't have access to these sources; can you quote the supporting text?

• FN 5 cites "When Shiotani was 14, he participated in a photography event at Karo (賀露) harbour in Tottori."

• 一九一三（大正二）年 ● 一四歳 ● 六月二二日 ● 芸術写真の同好の士が集まって鳥取市賀露港で撮影会を開催し、後に「光影倶楽部」となる「写真クラブ」が結成された。塩谷定好もこの集まりに参加していく。 [I've reformatted slightly but of course have left the text intact.] Well, this is embarrassing. Google Translate or similar will (or anyway should) tell you something like "1913 (2nd year of the Taishō era). Fourteen years old. June 22 ..." I lazily wrote that he was 14. Wrongo! This is a chronology, and within it 1913 is among the minority of years for which only a single event is described -- yet for each year, a single age is provided. The editors' point is that 1913 was the year in which Shiotani turned 14. However, he did so four months after this event. (I've also cited this chronology elsewhere, but am relieved to find that this citation is the only one in which I've mentioned Shiotani's age.) -- Hoary (talk) 23:16, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

• FN 3 cites "His Shadow (Kage) appeared in the March 1925 issue of Camera. As editor of both magazines, Kenkichi Nakajima [ja] realized that Shiotani was unusually talented."

• The first work by SHIOTANI to be published in a magazine was his “Still Life” _cat 1 that appeared in the January 1925 edition of “Geijutsu Shashin Kenkyū”. NAKAJIMA Kenkichi (1888–1972) praised the work saying, ‘this print takes a broad view of things, skillfully splitting up a simple mass to portray the subject. As a result, although it may be thought to be lacking in depth, it treats objects as being three-dimensional. Furthermore ... the whole picture has an overall rhythm makes it interesting.’ The work expressed the brilliance of the light while the simplified volume of the shapes within the square frame imbued the space with structure, while at the same time, to quote Cezanne, it ‘treated nature by means of the cylinder, the sphere, the cone,’ demonstrating tendencies towards the Western avant-garde world. He followed with his “Shadow” _cat 3 that was published in the March 1925 edition of ARS’s “Camera”. From this time, NAKAJIMA Kenkichi, who was responsible for selecting the works for “Geijutsu Shashin Kenkyū” and “Camera”, was quick to realize SHIOTANI Teikō’s talent. The ellipsis isn't mine; it's there within what I reproduce. Perhaps "overall rhythm makes it interesting" should be "overall rhythm that/which makes it interesting", but I reproduce what I read. The magazine is either Camera, Ars Camera or, I suppose, "Ars's Camera": there's no reason to capitalize "ARS", which isn't an abbreviation. This is a (lavish) exhibition catalogue; "cat" something is a catalogue number. The cited source fails to say that Nakajima was the editor (in chief) of either magazine. He was the editor of Geijutsu Shashin Kenkyū, a magazine which, Shirayama says: was associated with the tendency in art photography called the Besu-tan (Vest [Pocket], Single [Lens]) School after Nakajima Kenkichi, a leader of this tendency, became editor-publisher in April 1923. Merged with Camera (see above), another Ars publication, in October 1923 in the aftermath of the Tokyo Earthquake, the magazine restarted as a separate publication in September 1924, only to merge again with Camera in April 1926. In her description of Camera, Shirayama doesn’t mention Nakajima. I've reworded this more precisely. -- Hoary (talk) 00:32, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

• FN 11 cites "Susumu Shiotani (塩谷晋) accepted a crystal obelisk at Photokina on his grandfather's behalf."

• 展覧会場では、孫の晋（すすむ　一九五四 – ）が代理として表彰を受け、クリスタルオベリスクを贈られて、多くの人々に祝福された。 -- Hoary (talk) 00:51, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:36, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

The edits you made in response to the spotchecks seem minor enough to me that no further checking is needed. All that's left now are a couple of unstruck points above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:58, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Last issue fixed; passing. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:12, 25 April 2023 (UTC)